"They Handed Me the Baby with No Papers": The Reality of Hidden Foster Care with Deborah Willett

Challenges of Grandparent Caregivers

SPEAKER_02 1:32

They told me, come get her or she goes into the system. So she flew to Texas, signed a generic notary paper off the internet, and brought her granddaughter home. No ICPC, no financial support, no caseworker follow-up. That was Deborah Willett's introduction to hidden foster care, a system that quietly hands you total responsibility, offloads state liabilities onto your household balance sheet, and leaves you to figure out the rest alone. Welcome to Grandparents Raising Grandchildren, Nurturing Through Adversity. In this podcast, we will delve deep into the challenges and triumphs of grandparents raising grandchildren. As we navigate the complexities of legal, financial, and emotional support, I invite you to join us on a journey of exploring thoughts, feelings, and beliefs surrounding this growing segment of our society. Drawing from real stories and expert advice, we will explore the nuances of child rearing for children who have experienced trauma and offer valuable resources to guide you through the intricate journey of kinship care. We'll discuss how we can change the course of history by rewriting our grandchildren's future, all within a supportive community that understands the unique joys and struggles. This podcast was made especially for you. Welcome to a community where your voice is heard, your experiences are valued, and your journey is honored. We've all been there, sitting at our kitchen tables with a stack of applications, staring at a bank account that doesn't match the new reality living under your roof. When you suddenly take in a grandchild or a fictive kin child, the world assumes you've got it all together because you've parented before. But nobody warns you about the quiet panic of being a single caregiver at 70 or the legal maze of trying to secure custody on a fixed income. Today we're joined by Deborah Willett, a former foster parent, fictive kin caregiver, and founder of Grand Family Connections in Chester County, Pennsylvania. Deb exposed the hidden machinery of informal custody and built a peer-led sanctuary right where the state failed to show up. If you've ever felt isolated in your own living room, this conversation is the blueprint for taking back control. Thanks for joining us, Deborah. It's so nice to have you on the show.

SPEAKER_01 4:26

Thank you. I'm glad to be here.

SPEAKER_02 4:29

You've been in foster care, you've been involved in raising kin. Bring us into your home. Tell us about the circumstances surrounding your transition and what it was like initially and how it brought you into the position you're in now, becoming an advocate for kin caregivers.

SPEAKER_01 4:49

I received a call from my daughter who had moved to Texas. My granddaughter at the time was 16 months old when she moved, and she said child protective services was here because somebody reported my granddaughter walking in the apartment complex of the parking lot all by herself. And I'm like, oh. Now, my daughter, her mother, is adopted and she suffers from fetal alcohol syndrome. So she does not always make the best choices. So I said to her, Can I speak to the caseworker? And she said, sure. So I spoke to the caseworker and I explained somewhat of my daughter's background. And um I said to her, I said, if you are planning on putting my granddaughter in foster care, you call me. I said, I'll be on the first flight there. And so they wanted to work with my daughter and give her some time, and they didn't seem to understand about the fetal alcohol. Uh they just kept saying, Well, we're trying this and we're trying this, and excuse me, nothing's changing and everything. So after three months, they said, You need to come and get her, or we're gonna place her in the system. I said, All right, give me time, I'll be on the first flight there. So flew to Texas. Um my daughter and granddaughter and the caseworker. Um, I had taken a temporary guardianship paper that I just printed offline that I found. And we went to notary, signed it, and it was only good for three months, flew back home, and that's when everything like, like, what have I gotten myself into? Because like I was working. Yeah, I now how do I get daycare? My other kids, I was always a stay-at-home mom with my other kids. So now I had to figure out daycare. But the strange thing is, my daughter's father was still local to where I live, but he made no contact with her at all. The caseworker from Texas, no communication from her. The only communication I had from my local child protective services was they came out to do a to check the home out for safety, and that was it. I found out later there should have been an interstate compact done because we went from Texas to Pennsylvania and none of that was done. So once I learned that that was called hidden foster care, that really that got my advocacy going up. That I was really interested in that. How long ago was that? Sh uh almost it was 17 years. 17 years ago. She was 22 months when I brought her home. And uh she's now in her first year of college. She will be 19 in November. So there's light at the end of the tunnel. Sometimes it's really tough, and you don't think there's going to be. We had our struggles, but she was a pretty easy kid. And then the second one that I'm raising is not really related to me. He was what's considered thick

Starting a grandfamily support group

SPEAKER_01 7:22

of kin. I was working as a family peer support for a mental health provider, and I was helping families navigate the different child serving systems in our county. And at that time, I started noticing I worked a lot with kids that were in juvenile probation, and a lot of them were being raised by someone other than their parent. And so our county at the time says we need to do something to help support these families. So we started a grandfamily support group then, and that was shortly after I got my granddaughter. That group lasted until COVID, and then it when COVID hit, they shut down and never started back up again. Um but before COVID hit, I was asked to come out to the city where I live, and they said there's a need here. So we started a group there, and my little guy's paternal grandmother had seen the flyer for our support group. And she called and she says, I need some help with my 14-month-old grandson. Can you help me? And I'm like, Oh, sure, what can I how can I help you, you know?

Deciding to raise a child

SPEAKER_01 8:19

And within a few minutes, she was telling me she needed someone to raise him. And I'm like, oh my gosh, all from a flyer for a support group. At first I'm thinking, is this legal? Am I gonna get in trouble? You know, I mean, what am I gonna do? You know? So I actually contacted someone from my church and I said, I need someone to just bounce something off of. And uh, I shared the situation with them and everything, and and I'll never forget the answer the guy gave me. He said, God only asks us to say yes for today. And I said, Oh, okay. And well, several times throughout these seven years that I've had this little guy, I've texted the same guy, and I said, I said yes yesterday, but I don't know about tomorrow. He said, you know, it's just one of those things these days are up and down. So I got him and he is now eight. I've had him since he was 14 months old, has a lot of behavior issues and attachment and the PTSD and everything. That's kind of, and it was when we started the group, I was trained in what's called system of care. And it's where the families have just as much say and importance in meetings as the professionals. We know our kids better than anybody else. So when we started, we thought we were just gonna have a support group. And then as our families started expressing their needs of like what they needed and what they wanted, and we could see how to connect them with different services. It's blown into the huge program now. We're now in our seventh year.

SPEAKER_02 9:42

And so you were a part of forming grandfamily connections.

SPEAKER_01 9:45

Yes. It was me. It was just me for the longest time because it's been seven years, and a year ago, a little over a year ago, we hired another part-time worker to help me. And what I really am thrilled about a program is myself and my coworker both have years of experience of raising grandchildren. She's raising two grandchildren who she's had for over 10 years. And then at our program, we have a child care worker who was raised for many years by her grandmother. She's now leaving us, and we were so sad because she's having a baby of her own. So now, though, we have got someone coming in who has um lived experience from another perspective from another family member, not the caregiver and not the person who was raised, but her nephew is being raised by his grandmother. So she sees it from that perspective. She sees what he's going through, what her, I guess it's her in-laws are going through. We really like the idea of the lived experience. You know, you can hear everything from a book, but until you've lived it, that's the reality.

SPEAKER_02 10:51

It's true. And there's so many different perspectives of support that are needed. I mean, I wish that we had more support for the parents that are trying to negotiate how they manage the situations they're in when they lose a child. It's it's sad that there isn't more support all the way around. What are some of the primary calls for help that you receive every week there at Grand Family Connections?

SPEAKER_01 11:15

Since the economy has gone kind of crazy, a lot of it is for financial. They need housing assistance, utilities, gas cards to get back and forth to work, food, but getting custody is still a huge part. We do have a free legal aid service in our area, but they're very backlogged. We also have what's called the Access to Justice Program through our district bar association, and they can help provide pro bono services. But even that is limited. I mean, we've been we do get some donations for legal fees, but when you're given $2,500, it sounds like a lot and we're very appreciative of it. But a retainer is between five and seven thousand. So you can't even get it Does Pennsylvania receive any of the opioid funds? We're in the process of it now, yes. And we have through our county, through our county drug and alcohol, they are the ones that are, I guess, managing that money. And so we're in the process of that grant right now. They have a mini grant that we're applying for.

SPEAKER_02 12:15

So the county is getting some of those funds. Yes. A lot of a lot of cities and counties are not getting the funds in different states.

SPEAKER_01 12:23

So I was I know another county next to us is has either has it or is getting some. We're told we're very close to the time that the grant had to be submitted if we are chosen. We won't see anything in probably till like maybe spring of next year.

SPEAKER_02 12:38

Pennsylvania has a significant population of grandparents and relatives stepping up to take care for children. Do you know what the numbers are or roughly?

SPEAKER_01 12:47

Aaron Powell Through the foster care system in Kinship Foster, there are between 18 to 25 outside that are not involved with the foster care system who are in kinship care. So it comes out they said to about to one to two students in every public school classroom. That's a lot when you think of it that way.

SPEAKER_02 13:05

Yes, it is. I think it it's obviously more common than people realize. Yes. So you're saying that largely legal representation and finances are are two of the greatest needs in Pennsylvania and in your county.

SPEAKER_01 13:20

Yes. It seems like if they can get past those, then it's the emotional support. You know, we're older. How do we handle this? How do we do that? You know, we need a break, but we don't have anybody to watch the kids. You know, it's more the emotional. And that's what I just love with our group, how that they're stepping up for each other. Uh we have some grandparents that can't, they have no transportation and they want to attend a meeting. And so we have other grandparents that say they will pick them up or they'll or they'll drop off a meal if they know that somebody's sick or something. And it's really neat seeing them form those outside, it's their own little community that they're forming.

SPEAKER_02 13:54

You have peer-to-peer support groups there at Grand Family Connections?

Providing meals and childcare

SPEAKER_01 13:57

We have one, we meet, um, we don't meet in the summer, but we meet usually it's about twice a month at a local church and we provide a meal and we have child care for the children. And the children's part was something that we didn't recognize what could come from it. We thought we would provide child care so that the caregivers could come, they could talk and everything. But the bond that those kids form with each other is just really we had one year we had six sixth graders that all went to the same school who were all attending our support group meeting. And they didn't then they realized we're not the only ones that are being raised by old people, you know?

SPEAKER_02 14:37

And so it was really when they can connect. Yeah. When the kids can connect and be able to freely talk about the issues that they're concerned with that many other children don't even have to deal with, like exactly their parents being incarcerated or I know there's a lot of shame for children around having to go to family events at schools with their grandparents instead of their own biological parents. They feel different. But I think uh if you realized how many of the grandparents that are attending those meetings with their kids are actually raising them. I see a lot here in Louisiana, a lot more than I did in Montana, actually.

SPEAKER_01 15:16

And we have a lot of aunts and uncles, uh cousins, older siblings. Our youngest caregiver was 22 and had custody of three younger siblings, one still in diapers, and he was only 22, and I'm like, he's still trying to figure out his life, you know, let alone having custody of three. And then our oldest caregiver, I think she's eighty five, eighty-six by now, and she has two middle school kids. And she's now having a lot of health issues. So she has moved in with another daughter, and so her two daughters now are helping. So it's like a multi-generational wrapping around these two kids. You know, it's just um, yeah, it is.

SPEAKER_02 17:37

It that you're the second person I've spoken with in the last two days who knows of somebody that's in their early 20s raising their their siblings.

SPEAKER_01 17:46

Yeah. We have um, I think she's a cousin who's 29, single, never married, never any children, and she has her uh four and six-year-old niece and nephew, and one of them is on the autism spectrum. And she came to our support group, and we all were just like in awe because like we have parented before. So we have that basics, and here now she's got these kids dropped. She wasn't planning on them or anything, you know. And uh she's doing she's managing, she does. Her grandmother is helping her sometimes. She told some of her story and and the other grandparents started clapping for her. I just thought that was so neat because it was just to be that young and to have such a life change that you weren't planning on.

SPEAKER_02 18:32

Wow, what a story. Yes. What when you get calls from these people that are raising family or fictive kin, what do you think are the most common services that are being underutilized that they are not aware of that are available to them?

SPEAKER_01 18:50

I think the biggest one in our county is through our Department of Aging, we have a caregiver reimbursement program. And they have to be 55 and older to take part in this. Part of it that's tough is they will reimburse for school clothes, uh, sports activities, sometimes camps, different things like that. But the caregiver has to put the money out first and then they will reimburse them. And then they get reimbursed. And some don't have it to put out. So I tried figuring out I said, if we pi paid

Discussing reimbursement issues

SPEAKER_01 19:24

the initial payment, could you reimburse the caregiver for that and not us? Then they would have that money. So next month they could spend it and then get reimbursed, and it would just keep rolling over. And they said, no, you can't do that. So I said, I wasn't trying to do anything legal. I said I was trying to figure out a way that you know, like, why does it have to come? Why wouldn't they why wouldn't they do that? Because it wasn't coming from them.

SPEAKER_02 19:49

Oh, so I'm like, it's not coming from them. They want they want to see that person put the money up front. They want to put the effort out. I guess I can see that, but in a lot of situations, like these 20-year-olds that are raising kids when they're on minimum wage salaries, they just can't do that. So it's a shame. So they're not. Do you ever find sponsors that step up and give the money to the kids and then they well, we have had sponsors.

SPEAKER_01 20:14

We've had there's a different pastor in our area who several times has donated a good bit of money in the summer for the kids to go to summer camp. Then he says, you know, it gives the kids that experience of being with other kids, and then it also gives the caregivers a break, gives them a part of a respite and everything. And he has donated a lot to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_02 20:32

Respite care is ex i it it's the difficult to find. I mean, we don't get reimbursed for respite care. I think most grand most grandparents certainly don't.

SPEAKER_01 20:41

No. And respite, it's needed, but trying to find the right type that fit for our kids is tricky too.

SPEAKER_02 20:49

I was just talking about that with someone the other day. There's not many people you can leave children with special needs or that have been through trauma. It can be frightening for a young person that hasn't had that experience before. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 21:02

When they've been abandoned, you know, and they have attachment issues, you know, to go to someone else's place or something, you know. Yeah. And some of the ones in our area, the respite provider is not allowed to come to the home of the caregiver. It's not tailored for gr grandparents.

SPEAKER_02 21:16

I know that that is one of the policies that's being addressed in the SG Act that's been passed, respite care provided by persons that have experience caring for traumatized children. I don't know if that'll happen. That takes money, you know, more money. But I know it's one of the main asks uh that's being looked at in policy with legislature right now.

SPEAKER_01 21:40

Because that would help the caregivers. They because they put themselves on the back burner. They're always meeting the needs of the kids and their own physical health, mental health, grief all gets pushed back. They need to take care of the phone.

SPEAKER_02 21:51

How do you do it with all the work you've been doing with children? Do you have a partner that's supportive?

SPEAKER_01 21:56

I do not. I've been single for over 20 years. And and it's I would love to have a partner. My little guy would love to have a dad. And he has said to me, he said, you know, when are you gonna get me a dad? And I said, Well, you know, for you to have a dad, I have to have a husband. And he says, Well, would you like that? And I said, Well, that would be nice. And he goes, Well, at least we're on the same page about that. And I'm like, he sounds like a little old man, you know, talking.

SPEAKER_02 22:20

They they really do look out for us that way.

SPEAKER_01 22:22

They want us, they care very much. Yeah, I'm 70 and I have an eight-year-old. And I'm like, who is going to want to get into this relationship with an eight-year-old? Because anyone my age is, you know, empty nesters.

SPEAKER_02 22:34

Well, and if there was someone, they would be a saint, probably worth hanging on to. So

Building community support

SPEAKER_02 22:41

but I know that I know that we can do these things, and I know that I speak to a lot of single parents that are doing this, and it's tough, but it takes a community, a support group to help you, a great church or a great peer group. And that's why these connections and this community and sharing your resources with others out there in the county that may not know about you. I'm sure there are many people in the nearby area that don't know that you're there. And that's one of the reasons why we do these podcasts to let our listeners know what resources are available from your perspective.

SPEAKER_01 23:19

I was just gonna say, I just learned of a new resource the other day. In Pennsylvania, we have it's called Keystone Family Alliance, and it was started by a pastor who had been a foster parent and had adopted some children. And what they do, they get a coordinator for each county. I had attended the meetings about two years ago, and I'm like, oh, I want to do this, I want to do this, and I said, I can't con myself and do it all. But what they do is they help foster adopted and kinship families, and they get churches that will sponsor them. And if a child has a need, it goes out onto a database. And any of the churches or the people in the church that have signed up, if

Church support network for families

SPEAKER_01 23:54

they look through when it comes through and they say, Oh, I'll fill that need, I'll fill that need. But they also do, they call them, um, they create caring circles around the families. And they have like four or five couples in the church that they concentrate on that kinship family. Once a week, they provide a home cooked meal that they deliver to the family. They help with yard work, seasonal work, home repairs, tutoring, laundry, grocery shop, whatever the family needs, these families wrap themselves around that family to help strengthen them so that they can continue doing what they need to do. Because it does take a lot when we have these special needs children.

SPEAKER_02 24:31

That's wonderful. So they call these caring circles.

SPEAKER_01 24:34

Yes. And we finally got a coordinator for our county. So now I'm like, so I'm meeting with her next week. So I said, I am so excited.

SPEAKER_02 24:40

Yes. Good news. Yes. Good news. So from your perspective as both a grandmother and a program director, what specific policy changes or legislation do you think need to be prioritized in Pennsylvania to support these families?

SPEAKER_01 24:55

I think the thing that has struck me the most lately is kids need permanency. And we have programs to help support um our kinship families as far as like if a family has full physical and legal custody, they can get supports from this one agency. Through the Department of Aging, that Caregiver Reimbursement Program. But if the caregivers end up adopting, those supports go away. And to me, it reminds me. Yes. And it when I used to foster, several of my kids were adopted from the foster care system. And they told me that they started this, it's the Title IV adoption subsidy, and it comes with a monthly stipend, and the kids get their medical assistance until they're 18. And they said that was created because if a child had been with a foster family for three or four years, and then the goal goes to adoption, those foster families have gotten used to living on that amount of money for the children. And in the past, apparently, if they would adopt, that would go away. So you have families and children that have bonded with each other and the caregivers saying, we can't afford to raise two or three more kids without that. So they started this Title IV adoption subsidy, which continues. And I say, you know, that would be great. Why, since they can do it for foster care, why can't they continue these services for kinship families when they adopt? I mean, they're not huge, you know, it's not monthly stipend or something, but they're just support programs that could help maintain the family afterwards.

SPEAKER_02 26:30

We have not adopted our children for that exact reason. We're legal guardians. We've we've moved from one state to another, so some of the laws have changed, but I do believe that the funds should follow the child, no matter what the title is that the caregiver has for those children. It takes a lot of money to raise a child.

SPEAKER_01 26:48

It sure does, especially if you're on limited income and weren't planning to add a child, you know, to your family or more. We've had one family that has eight raising eight grandkids, some raising five and six, and I'm like, wow.

SPEAKER_02 27:02

Yes, that's amazing. How can listeners get a hold of you? Is there a website for grandfamily connections?

SPEAKER_01 27:10

We don't. We are under a nonprofit. We are a program that's part of a nonprofit, and we're under the Coatesville Center for Community Health. And if you go to that website under programs, it'll come up grand families. But I'm willing to share my my phone number and my email. My email is Deb D E B at Coatesville Center. It's C-O-A-T-E-S V-I-L-E Center.org. And my phone number is 610-246-2261. And I've gotten calls from all over the country, from Washington State. And and I thought one of the cutest things I got, I got a handwritten letter through the mail. You could tell it was from an older person, and it came to our office, and she just says, I don't do computers, I don't do anything. And she sent me this letter. She was like halfway across the state. And I had to write a letter, which I hadn't done in years, to respond back to her because she didn't give an email or phone number or anything. So I'm usually available to talk. I get calls public.

SPEAKER_02 28:11

I will put all your contact information in the show notes, Deborah.

SPEAKER_01 28:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 28:15

Thank you for taking your time to be on the show. Thank you for the work you do. God bless you. As a parent, a caregiver, a king giver, and all the children that you've taken care of and are helping others with. You all are my heroes.

SPEAKER_01 28:30

I think we're each others. And sometimes we have crossed over.

SPEAKER_00 28:39

You know? And I'm like, yeah, we do have our days.

SPEAKER_02 28:42

I say, I say we're crazy good.

unknown 28:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:45

That's a good way of put it too. Yeah. Yep. Thank you, Deb. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 28:50

Thank you. I appreciate being here and I'm looking forward to hearing on your other podcasts too. Thanks for sharing your story. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 28:57

Deb reminded us today that God or the universe only asks us to say yes for today, but to keep

Assessing and Strengthening Support Systems

SPEAKER_02 29:04

saying yes tomorrow without burning out, you cannot run your household on fumes or informal handshakes. I want you to audit your support system right now. Are you trying to carry full physical, legal, and financial custody without a legal safety net or a peer group that understands your language? Reach out to your local area agency on aging. Look for kinship caregiver reimbursement programs. Join our online support group. The link is on our website. Or find a peer support circle where your child can see they aren't the only ones being raised by grandparents. Pick one administrative line item on your household agenda today, whether it's a call to legal aid or finding a local church caring circle and take back your ground. Join us next week for episode 138 as we sit down with Keith Lohorn, a four-decade broadcast news

Keith Lowhorne's Grandparents Advocacy

SPEAKER_02 29:58

veteran who assumed custody of two newborn grandchildren affected by prenatal substance exposure right at his retirement. Keith co-founded Grandparents as Parents, or GAP, and served as chair of the Federal Advisory Council to support grandparents raising grandchildren. He's sharing his practical map for transforming a personal family emergency into community infrastructure and national policy change. The mission continues. We are 2.7 million strong, still nurturing and still here. You didn't choose to step into hidden foster care, but you can choose to lead through it. And taking back your power starts at your own kitchen table. Keep nurturing, keep leading, and I will see you in the next boardroom.